Small power increase - W124 300D OM603.960

[Sivonen]

Jzaroh:
Theres a small (hopefully to be bigger ) topic for videos here. Feel free to post your videos there (and/or you can put your videos to related topics too, like you did here). And of course the videos dont have to be "super-turbo" videos, any clip is fun to watch.

The powers that we are talking about are from the engine (SAE? DIN? ...I dont know), not from wheels. Surely 500rwhp would be nice... And a bit useless in Finnish winter


And btw, the url tags work like this:

Koodi: Valitse kaikki

[url=http://mersuforum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13577&highlight=]here[/url]

...or just type the url (incl. http:/ ) - the forum software converts it to a link automatically. Like this: http://mersuforum.net/
No offense

[jzaroh]

Jzaroh:
Theres a small (hopefully to be bigger ) topic for videos here. Feel free to post your videos there (and/or you can put your videos to related topics too, like you did here). And of course the videos dont have to be "super-turbo" videos, any clip is fun to watch.

The powers that we are talking about are from the engine (SAE? DIN? ...I dont know), not from wheels. Surely 500rwhp would be nice... And a bit useless in Finnish winter


And btw, the url tags work like this:

Koodi: Valitse kaikki

[url=http://mersuforum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13577&highlight=]here[/url]

...or just type the url (incl. http:/ ) - the forum software converts it to a link automatically. Like this: http://mersuforum.net/
No offense

A little bit different than merc shop.

I will post the video over there, thanks.

[Mauri H.]

We are talking about SAE net HP:s.

Of course with automatic transmission it is impossible to measure the correct SAE HP:s, because the transmission has power losses that cannot be measured.

For automatic 450 HP from rear wheels would be satisfying

There are many, many car enthusiastics in Finland, who still doesn't belive that diesel can be like that. I don't care, it is even better if they don't belive, you get to see much more dramatic expressions in their faces in the end.

[Zeitgeist]

I've been wondering about the size of your turbos. Typically, a larger turbo will increase turbo lag, which can put the power band higher up in the RPM range. Is this the case with the Super Turbos? Do they pull hard right away when you step on the throttle, or does it take a while before the boost kicks in?

Also, how well do the cars drive in normal daily driving conditions? What kind of fuel consumption figures do they typically return?

Sorry for all the questions, but we really don't have much experience over here with small displacement performance diesels.

Thanks.

[Mauri H.]

I've been wondering about the size of your turbos. Typically, a larger turbo will increase turbo lag, which can put the power band higher up in the RPM range. Is this the case with the Super Turbos? Do they pull hard right away when you step on the throttle, or does it take a while before the boost kicks in?

Also, how well do the cars drive in normal daily driving conditions? What kind of fuel consumption figures do they typically return?

Sorry for all the questions, but we really don't have much experience over here with small displacement performance diesels.

Thanks.

Bigger elements will reduce the lag, also the timing has effect on that.

With manual transmission those big Holsets will wake up around 2000 rpm, the output raises dramatically around 3000 rpm. Under that the car is really enjoyable and easy to drive, there is lots of Torgue even without any boost.

Usable max rpm:s are around 6000, behind that can be used but it doesn't make much sence.

Fuel consumption is getting better if you have some self-control, but if you regularry use the power, it will of course show in the mpg:s.

[jzaroh]

Mauri, what is the condition of your 12-valve OM603? I mean, did you just swap it out for the 24-valve 606 for upgrading, or was the engine just getting tired?

I am very much enjoying this thread. Thank you guys for being so prompt in response times. I wish I were fluent in Finnish.

Thanks,

Justin

[Mauri H.]

That old engine was already in not-so-good shape when I tuned it up, the engine breathed a lot through the breather tube. Piston ring are propably tired, and therefore the engine will be built up again with some new parts. It is not broken, but still needs basic repairing, new piston rings, bearings and so on.

I have no use for it, and when it is finished, it will propably find it's way to new owner.

First I was just going to rebuilt the old one, but then I run across this new engine and couldn't help myself

[AMG Dave]

Bigger elements will reduce the lag, also the timing has effect on that.

With manual transmission those big Holsets will wake up around 2000 rpm, the output raises dramatically around 3000 rpm. Under that the car is really enjoyable and easy to drive, there is lots of Torgue even without any boost.

Usable max rpm:s are around 6000, behind that can be used but it doesn't make much sence.

Fuel consumption is getting better if you have some self-control, but if you regularry use the power, it will of course show in the mpg:s.

Interesting! So larger elements will increase the low-end power, before boost starts building? Wow. Our stock engines seem to have the power taper off past 4500rpm or so. You mean that with the modifications, there is still strong power to 5000-5500rpm? Is the engine safe at 5500-6000rpm? Most of us can't afford to buy new short blocks if the engine grenades...!

Side note - what injection timing is preferred for moderate and high power applications? I have my engine set to 14.0 ATDC using the RIV tool. Also, what opening pressure do you set the injectors to? Mine are set to about 143 bar. I was curious if there is any advantage to higher (or lower) injector set points.

Thanks again to everyone for all the information - you guys are great!!

[Mauri H.]

Bigger elements will provide more power for full range, because the injection time is getting shorter. This improves efficiency and increases the power. One of my friend measured the output of his OM603 before installing the turbocharger, the car had modified pump and it produced 180 hp. Injection volume was 60 mm3, which is full volume of regular pump. Modified pumps can do around 130 mm3 when boost is high enough. That car didn't smoke too much.

The engine can easily handle 6000 rpm, These engines give their best power around 5500-6000 rpm, if all the other parts are suitable.

[AMG Dave]

Speaking of fuel economy, what loss in MPG (miles per gallon) do you see with a SuperTurbo that is driven gently? I know economy will be poor if you have a heavy foot, but if you're on a long freeway trip at a steady 75mph (~110km/h), is there much difference? Maybe 5-10% less economy? I usually get 29-31 MPG...

Mauri, what kind of power does your new OM606 put out? Have you tested it on a chassis dyno yet?

[Mauri H.]

Speaking of fuel economy, what loss in MPG (miles per gallon) do you see with a SuperTurbo that is driven gently? I know economy will be poor if you have a heavy foot, but if you're on a long freeway trip at a steady 75mph (~110km/h), is there much difference? Maybe 5-10% less economy? I usually get 29-31 MPG...

Mauri, what kind of power does your new OM606 put out? Have you tested it on a chassis dyno yet?

Hi Dave

Actually the fuel economy gets better if you drive gently. It is because of increased efficiency of the engine due to pump modifications, IC and larger exhaust.

Best consumption I have got is 5.7 liters per 100 km, which is 41-42 MPG.
But that reguires real, real sensitive driving with no overtaking others.

Normally on highway with some strong overcomes you could get with around 33-34 MPG

And with heavy driving on the highway (using the power regularry) you can get as bad numbers as 23-24 MPG

With this OM606 I've done some guite rough driving with around 30 MPG. With better self control some real good mileage would be possible. Of course it is winter here now, and that worsens the mileage also.

I haven't measured the output yet, I should make some changes to the throttle linkage first, but I have no time or intrest to remove the intake manifold and pressure lines, I just drive it

They are building up a good dynamometer in our town, and I'll propably try that one in the spring time.

However I have a feeling that numbers +800 NM and around 480 hp will be broken soon by OM606

[AMG Dave]

Mauri, that is just amazing. Wow! If I can get 200hp with a small intercooler (like this one from a W203 Kompressor), and even BETTER fuel economy than stock, that would blow my mind.

BTW - are you expecting 480hp & 800Nm when measured at the rear wheels? Or do you meaasure at the rear wheels, and then add in the estimated driveline losses (transmission) to come up with approximate crankshaft power numbers?


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[Mauri H.]

Mauri, that is just amazing. Wow! If I can get 200hp with a small intercooler (like this one from a W203 Kompressor), and even BETTER fuel economy than stock, that would blow my mind.

BTW - are you expecting 480hp & 800Nm when measured at the rear wheels? Or do you meaasure at the rear wheels, and then add in the estimated driveline losses (transmission) to come up with approximate crankshaft power numbers?


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That cooler don't look too good, I'd go to real cooler...

The economy is getting better mostly because of the modified pump.

That 480 hp is engine power, at the moment one of my frieds car pullet out 462 hp with slipping clutch So more power is available when he gets real clutch, those BMW Motorsport parts just cannot handle real power.

[AMG Dave]

That cooler don't look too good, I'd go to real cooler....

How about one of these? Remember we're only looking for 200-250hp capacity, not 450-500..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 7914039792

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 7916680044

Here's a photo from Casey (Zeitgeist) showing where we're hoping to mount the IC:
http://users.zhonka.net/zeitgeist/300TD ... _12-04.jpg

[Mauri H.]

Much better coolers already.

If you are planning to put it down there, both of those ebay-ones are on. Propably will do 250 hp nicely.

[mygreen300d]

Hey all new here, after 3 tries I have finally made it with the help of an online translator. . I also live in calif, and currently own a 123 and 124 diesel. In the paper I have seen 1987's for sale a lot with many miles on them and they are pretty cheap. I would like to restore if you will one of these into a superdiesel. How costly and hard is it to rebuild an engine from one these? I have a trusty german diesel mechanic who I am sure could do it for me, but the more money I save the better. I know it isnt that difficult to get a lot of ponies out of a stock engine. so my questions are:
Rebuild cost /difficulty?
Turbo upgrade size?
Intercooler shape/size and where to mount?
Position of air cleaner?(I know the stock box would be too restrictive, and Ive seen 'em with cone filters)
I plan on custom exhaust, how big of downpipe and the rest of it?
What will I have to do to fuel delivary system?
I have toyed with the idea of a propane injection setup, but I dont know how to inject it on a diesel like this. I know people have em on their newer diesel pickups. comments on that?
I know they made 5speed manuals in europe for these cars, how hard is it to install one on my car?(im not a big fan of auto trannies)
Will my stock rear-end hold up with this beast when Im done?


I am fairl competant as a mechanic, I know how most all parts work, and Im fearless with a wrench

I know this is a lot, but I am hoping you can help, because you seem like a smart group here.

Thanks,Steve

[speedy300dturbo]

Here's some good info on that, from some English MB forums:

http://buymbparts.com/forum/showthread.php?t=159

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/s ... ge=3&pp=15

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/s ... ge=3&pp=15

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/s ... ge=6&pp=15

Happy reading!

[AMG Dave]

Speedy is right, read the other posts for more info on the power boost. Rebuilding these engines is not cheap - better to start with a tight bottom end and just modify the intake, exhaust, and fuel delivery. About your last 2 questions:

1) The manual tranny conversion is a BIG deal and NOT cheap. I wouldn't attempt this unless you have access to a donor car with a 5-speed, or are willing to do serious custom fabrication, or have relatives in Germany who can raid breakers and send you parts cheap. A properly adjusted (and properly driven!) 722.3 tranny is actually not bad at all once you learn how to control the part-throttle shifts by hand.

2) The stock rear axle should probably hold up reasonably well to 250hp or so. If it blows up, a replacement is cheap ($100 USD or so). You can upgrade to the stronger 210mm differential quite easily and also cheaply if you wish to retain the stock 2.65 axle ratio and do NOT want limited-slip. If you want a different ratio, that requires a different speedometer, and adding limited slip increases the cost substantially. There's a whole thread about this on the buymbparts forum.

[Melitos]

Rebuild cost /difficulty?

Well, it's not cheap. I suggest you ask US prices for parts from mercedesshop.com forum. All the engine internals in Super Turbos are stock MB parts, so no need to locate aftermarket parts to your engine. Just replace worn parts with new stuff.

Turbo upgrade size?

Holset HX 40 is the most common.

Intercooler shape/size and where to mount?

Bigger is better, front mounted air to air IC is the way to go.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/ ... /keula.jpg
See Mauri H.'s cooler, notice how it goes all the way up to the uppermost fin of radiator grille.

Position of air cleaner?(I know the stock box would be too restrictive, and Ive seen 'em with cone filters)

See pic from konjamiini's car (notice also the IC which is about the same size as Mauri H.'s.)
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v29 ... c00130.jpg

I plan on custom exhaust, how big of downpipe and the rest of it?

4" / 3,5" is fine. You also need new exh manifold. See pics from the link (scroll all the way down for exhaust pipe pics). http://mersuforum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9396

What will I have to do to fuel delivary system?

Remove your injection pump and send it to Mynä-Diesel here in Finland, then install it back to your car when it arrives back to you.

The pumping elements (barrels and plungers) are enlargened from 5,5mm -> 7mm. Also some fiddling with governors etc etc. The fueling amount can be adjusted from outside of the pump. How exactly these modifications are made is not public information, sorry.

I have toyed with the idea of a propane injection setup, but I dont know how to inject it on a diesel like this. I know people have em on their newer diesel pickups. comments on that?

Nobody has propane injection here in Finland. Partly because it's illegal in street use. Why use it anyway if there is a way for enough power using only regular diesel fuel.

I know they made 5speed manuals in europe for these cars, how hard is it to install one on my car?(im not a big fan of auto trannies)
Will my stock rear-end hold up with this beast when Im done?

Some of the Finnish Super Turbos are with auto trans, some with manuals. Original 300 turbodiesel was not offered with manual even here in Europe. There are obvious problems with clutch slipping with almost all of the manual transmission users when using full torque of their Super Turbos (over 500 lbs-ft). AFAIK nobody's found a real cure for this yet (except decreasing the fueling amount of injection pump and thus lowering max torque of the engine). Usage of 2-plate cluthes have been discussed, but they're not very streetable.

Auto trans needs also some strengthening, or it will start to slip. If you want to have boost right from the start, then the torque converter has to be modified for higher stall speed. So far nobody's been able to break a strengthened auto trans.

The differential and half-shafts are quite strong and hold up. Note however that if you don't have limited slip diff and you do one wheel burnouts you have good possibilities to explode your diff. Pic about konjamiini's diff after not-so-succesful burnout http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/ ... c00318.jpg

When buying the car to upgrade it, make sure it is original turbodiesel model. The engine internals, transmission etc (ie. all the critical parts) are stronger than in naturally aspirated 300D.

[mygreen300d]

Thanks, the propane is illegal here too, but if they dont catch you.....I probably wont end up doing that. Ok, how much for the injector pump to be reworked? What is the process of strengthening the auto trans? The car presently has 150K miles. Will I need a rebuild or not? I was actaully planning on running this one out with all the upgrades then rebuilding it. Is it overall fairly easy to do the engine work? Since I wont be doing the hard part, the rest seem fairly simple. I cannot read finnish obviously, so I dont understand that last link about the manifold. Where can I get a header like that? Or is it a custom piece? Thanks for all the links, that will be my reading for now.

[Zeitgeist]

I should be picking up my custom intercooler sometime this week. How have you folks plumbed the crankcase breather hose? I'm thinking it might not be a good idea to plumb it prior to the IC, since that would just coat the inside with oil, making it less efficient over time. I also don't think you can vent into the manifold, given that it's pressurized by the turbo, so do you just vent to the atmosphere?

Thanks,

Casey

[Antti K]

You may lead that hose under your car. And if you are worried about steem and oil what leaks from hose, you should put some kind of can or bucket in the end. There is also one kind of filter parts what you can use but cheapest way is just lead it to the atmosphere.

[AMG Dave]

ANother option is to weld a hose nipple into the exhaust pipe at an angle. The suction from the fast moving gasses will suck the oil vapor out and expel them via the tailpipe. This is a cleaner method, but requires more work. The American hot-rod crowd does this with headers on race engines.

[Petri K]

ANother option is to weld a hose nipple into the exhaust pipe at an angle. The suction from the fast moving gasses will suck the oil vapor out and expel them via the tailpipe. This is a cleaner method, but requires more work. The American hot-rod crowd does this with headers on race engines.

Hello Dave! That won't work in turbocharged engine I'm afraid, or have you seen any installation like this with turbo-engines.
I have that system in my old 440 cid mopar, it work in that one but it needs a fast blow'in exhaust cycle what we don't have after turbine ( constant blow)

[AMG Dave]

Wooops. Well, it was a good idea while it lasted. I was wondering if there was enough exhaust velocity, post-turbine, to scavenge the PCV vapor. Maybe not on the diesel, huh! Although, as long as there's not pressure back into the PCV tube (could add a check valve), it *might* still work. Venting into a bottle strapped to something underneath would be much easier, and this will prevent little oil drips.

[Petri K]

Wooops. Well, it was a good idea while it lasted. I was wondering if there was enough exhaust velocity, post-turbine, to scavenge the PCV vapor. Maybe not on the diesel, huh! Although, as long as there's not pressure back into the PCV tube (could add a check valve), it *might* still work. Venting into a bottle strapped to something underneath would be much easier, and this will prevent little oil drips.

That bottle is best (when remain open to the atmosphere)
In my own car 250DT (W124) the down pipe diameter after turbine 2,5" outlet increase up to 4" so the gas velocity is not so high after turbine.

[Zeitgeist]

So, I'm about ready to add my new modified intake manifold and turn up the injection pump, after I successfully mounted the front mount intercooler to my '87 TD

Can I just turn up the full load screw (2f) counterclockwise until it stops turning, or do I need to be careful about how many times I crank it out, lest I hurt something in the process?][/img]

[veskola]

So, I'm about ready to add my new modified intake manifold and turn up the injection pump, after I successfully mounted the front mount intercooler to my '87 TD

[ http://users.zhonka.net/zeitgeist/300TD%20Mods/IC%20with%20bumper%20(cropped).jpg ]

Can I just turn up the full load screw (2f) counterclockwise until it stops turning, or do I need to be careful about how many times I crank it out, lest I hurt something in the process?][/img]

[Kevin Johnson]

Hi,

I have a 300 SDL with the OM603.961 engine and am considering manufacturing a crank scraper for it. I am often driving at 3100 rpms and above and this is the range where they start making a significant difference in engine output.

I was given a blown M103 from a 2.6 (82.9mm bore X 80.2mm stroke) and am wondering if the fully counterweighted crank and general crankcase area are the same between the two engines? I know that I will need to compensate for the increased stroke.

Thanks for your help!

Kind regards,

Kevin